Heroes and antiheroes in the history of Ukraine, interviews with Euromaidan participants

I don’t like heroes. There are no heroes for me. I perceive them as historical personalities. I mean, they all are historical personalities: somebody is worse, somebody is better. There are negative symbols for me – like Lenin, but I also have no desire to bring flowers to Bandera, Chornovil, Hrushevskyi, or anyone else. I mean… I think we have to stop heroizing and start analyzing.  

Man, 32 years old, recorded in Lviv on February 5, 2014, Euromaidan and Orange Revolution participant

[Heroes] Andrei Sheptytskyi, Stepan Bandera, Roman Shukhevych. … Antiheroes? Tough. These are people who bring no… President Yanukovych. To me, he is an antihero. How about the past? None. I really like the attitude of people from eastern countries. In China. There are… I happened to communicate… about Mao Zedong – a person who did a lot of good. Chinese perceive heroes and antiheroes as a part of history because they really were. We analyze them. He is not good, and he is not bad. … Up to a point, I think of all who were in the history of Ukraine and who we are now – all of them brought some merit. There is a demon, and there is not a demon. It doesn’t work like this in China: God is bad, and God is evil. Everyone does good things and bad things – yin and yang. They are all aimed at creating what we have now.

Man, 40 years old, recorded in Lviv on February 6, Euromaidan participant

Well, I don’t know. I believe these are people like Sverstiuk, Marynovych, and Horyn… simply heroes, and that’s it. And the antiheroes are the communist clique, who quickly changed their colors to blue and yellow but continued to pursue the Soviet way of thinking in governing the state.

Man, 46 years old, recorded in Lviv on February 6, 2014, Euromaidan and the Orange Revolution participant

In history [heroes]? I’ve got problems with history.

Man, 30 years old, recorded in Kyiv on February 7, 2014, Euromaidan participant 

Of our country? To me, a hero is… For instance, a futurist, Semenko, is a hero of our country to me. He was executed as some kind of a left-wing fascist, a completely sickening statement – a hero who began to create entirely new things in Ukrainian history.

Man, 35 years old, recorded in Kyiv on February 7, 2014, Euromaidan and the Orange Revolution participant 

Well, this is a tricky question because, first of all, it’s impossible to name just one person. It wouldn’t be right. There were many of them, and there were many antiheroes. An antihero is colonel Nis, who opened the gates and they took Baturyn. I didn’t do any research, but we named him like that. That’s what concerns history. And there are numerous heroes. To me, heroes are, first of all, artists and then some state figures. The list is huge here, starting with Taras Hryhorovych [Shevchenko, t/n], no matter how he was taught at school, with all those Soviet labels of “revolutionary poet” and “democrat.” You take his works and read “To my fellow countrymen, in Ukraine and not in Ukraine, living, dead and as yet unborn“ and realize how relevant it all is, and more than that. To me, Mykola Khvylovyi is a hero, despite his communist orientation or whatever else they called him later. Risking his own life is such a wild performance to put such an end eventually that Bolsheviks didn’t forgive him for it. They still could tolerate Vynnychenko, who was abroad, and Khvylovyi was pushed to death. To me, these are artists — the whole Boichuk school. And then the artists who created later – Alla Horska. These were poets Ivan Svitlychnyi. Taras Melnychyk is a remarkable poet too. And the list can go on, and only then can we name state figures such as hetman Sahaidachnyi or somebody else.

Man, 51 years old, recorded in Kyiv on February 7, Euromaidan participant 

Well, I have a complicated attitude toward Ukrainian heroes. I find Ivan Mazepa most likable – such a beautiful, tragic figure, nobel. And otherwise? Well, it’s a complicated criterion. I’m telling you, there could be thirty, fifty times more monuments in Kyiv.

Man, 52 years old, recorded in Kyiv, on February 7, 2014, Euromaidan participant 

I would call, and it would be peculiar now, but I find Leonid Kuchma a hero of our country because, in 2004, he didn’t give the order. It requires some ethical and human traits and political will, which, unfortunately, nobody could show after him. … I would call an antihero, apart from obvious things, I mean somebody who can’t be called by name, Mr. “golden toilet” [Yanukovych, t/n]. In addition, I would name Viktor Yushchenko, who betrayed me personally and betrayed millions of people who relied on him. He had high credibility that we put by his feet, and he stepped on it neatly and didn’t quite notice it.

Woman, 28 years old, recorded in Kyiv, on February 7, 2014, Euromaidan participant, the Orange Revolution participant, member of the organization “Public Hospital”

Well, who are the heroes? I’ve already told you who the heroes are. The Ukrainian Cossacks were heroes who didn’t spare their lives. So are today’s Cossacks. This is great. Even this Cossack who was tormented and tortured. This boy endured everything. It was well done. I respect them. Like I respect those boys who have served in the army recently, they had no fear. They came here. This is great. If only there were more of them, I think everything would be in order in two weeks.

Man, 50 years old, recorded in Kyiv on February 7, 2014, Euromaidan participant 

Well, I would call these four previous presidents antiheroes. There are many heroes. Starting with Bohdan Khmelnytskyi. There was even a hetman, well, not a hetman, there was rather some sotnyk [a military rank among the Cossacks, t/n]. Ivan Sirko was a hero too. By the way, there are almost no records about him in our archives. But they are in French and Spanish archives. I compare him with Napoleon. He did not lose a battle. Do you understand? Well, people have to learn our history. They have to know it. As one classic said, “those who have no past have no future.”

Man, 29 years old, recorded in Kyiv on February 7, 2014, Euromaidan participant 

Honestly, I have not noticed any bright examples of heroism among modern people. Some people were trying to do something. To me, there still are guarantors of words – the writer Shevchenko, who said so long ago the words that we use now. I mean, back then, he fought and fought to the best of his abilities and beyond. So much time has passed, and those words are still relevant now. The same goes to Bandera, who led the underground struggle because there were reasons for that, I suppose. If he had been, let’s say, in opposition power back then, everything would have been probably different. So, yeah, these people are heroes to me now. And as for our contemporaries – we will see then.

Man, 25 years old, recorded in Kyiv on February 8, 2014, Euromaidan participant 

[I find heroes are those] who fought for Ukraine, and that’s all. … It’s difficult on the spot… [Antiheroes] Communists who ruled us.

Man, 69 years old, recorded in Kyiv on February 8, 2014, Euromaidan participant 

[Heroes] I can’t say that these are Bandera or Shukhevych. I just can’t right now.

Man, 23 years old, recorded in Kyiv on February 8, 2014, Euromaidan participant 

Well, probably, heroes, as a rule, [can be called] all who… the same Hrushevskyi, Orlyk, maybe, most likely, those who contributed to the establishment of the Ukrainian people, to the western Ukrainian people, so those who tried to build Ukraine. Then the same Bandera, the same Shukhevych, who fought for their land, for Ukraine. I perceive them in this way, so yes, against the Germans, against the Soviets, against someone, they were trying to stand their ground.

Woman, 30 years old, recorded in Kharkiv on February 9, 2014, Euromaidan participant 

Do you mean in the history of Ukrainians in general? Let’s start with heroes. Oh, there are so many heroes. Well, I’ll mention the expected heroes again. These are Mazepa, and the hetmans [military commanders, t/n]. I don’t recall last names, but I mean those who took part in setting free from the Pereyaslav agreements. Some of them were from the right bank and some from the left bank. If we’re talking about the times of the Ukrainian National Republic, I don’t think there were many such people. I cannot, for example, say that Vynnychenko is a hero to me and Hrushevskyi is not a hero to me. I don’t know… Well, Petliura is a hero. To me, the heroes are the presidents of Carpatho-Ukraine. As for the UPA [The Ukrainian Insurgent Army, t/n], Shukhevych is a hero to me. Well, there are certain people, I can’t recall their last names, but in the twenties and thirties, there were people from the Ukrainian Liberation Council, but honestly, I can’t recall their last names. Then there were people who fought for the restoration of independence, who died in the seventies, who died, and not only those who died. There were many people before independence, but not all of them. [And speaking about antiheroes?] Well, according to the situation, these are Muraviov and Boholyubskyi. Well, I don’t know about Bohdan Khmelnytskyi, whether he is a hero or an antihero. Those who betrayed, colonels who did betray us. To me, antiheroes are… what was the name… Well. To me, an antihero is Stalin, as well as many generals of the Red Army, not all of them, but many of them killed our people. To me, an antihero is the system and those who have been involved in it, and now they walk around showing off their World War II awards, but in fact, they served all those processes. One of the modern antiheroes is Medvedchuk. He is an antihero to me. A modern antihero is Kravchuk, a man who, in my opinion, has done many bad things.

 Man, 30 years old, recorded in Kyiv on February 9, 2014, activist, one of the Euromaidan organizers

Well, we have many heroes: starting with the Cossacks, we have so many hetmans, Bohdan Khmelnytskyi, Ivan Mazepa, Skoropadskyi, Hrushevskyi, and these are truly Ukrainian people. You can also name Taras Shevchenko and Franko, who really glorified Ukraine and whose works are still glorifying Ukraine, of course. Well, the antiheroes, I won’t go that far. These are our presidents since [19]91, who took part. All of them are antiheroes. And practically none of them have done anything worthwhile so far.

Man, 31 years old, recorded in Kyiv on February 9, 2014, Euromaidan and Orange Revolution participant 

Antiheroes, antiheroes… I don’t even know. No, it’s too complicated. I don’t differentiate like this.

Woman, 25 years old, recorded in Kyiv on February 9, 2014, Euromaidan and Automaidan activist, Orange Revolution participant 

This is an extensive question, an extensive question. There are many people [heroes], fighters, starting, let’s say, if we look at the last century, starting with Kholodnyi Yar, the resistance of the UPA [The Ukrainian Insurgent Army, t/n], the OUN [The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, t/n], the UPA, there are dozens of names.

Man, 55 years, recorded in Kyiv on February 9, 2014, Euromaidan participant

This is something very diverse. And, as you can see, it’s also extensive, multi-vector. Vyacheslav Chornovil, for instance, is a hero.

Woman, 44 years old, recorded in Kyiv on February 9, 2014, Euromaidan participant 

Well, to me personally, to me, it’s all the people who fought for. I don’t know how trivial it may sound, but for the people of Ukraine to live at least a little bit better. Starting with this recent Chornovil, yes, who was killed, and the journalists who were eager to write the truth about the events in the country and were killed. Any person we don’t even know there, yeah, who wasn’t chasing their own goals, but still was somehow very close to the truth and wanted to show what was going on, just wanted to expose those people. And for me, they are just [heroes], yes, always. People who weren’t afraid, even though they most likely suspected how they might be treated. They still went all the way for justice. So, to me, they are the heroes of the country. I mean, it’s not some kind of mainstream, as we stereotypically claim, “Bandera is our hero.” Yeah? And we are children of some mythical Bandera, children of mythical Bandera and mythical children. Antiheroes? I don’t know. Well, of course, because of our history, which is so ambiguous, it’s hard to talk about anything. I do not know all the moments there. But, most likely, it is the Soviet Union and all its representatives.

Woman, 26 years old, recorded in Kharkiv on February 10, 2014, Euromaidan and Orange Revolution participant

For me, Bandera is a hero. Antiheroes, antiheroes, antiheroes. Who is an antihero in our country? To me, a hero is someone who, first of all, stands for Ukraine’s independence and someone who does it through work. For example, Vernadskyi. When he worked here, he wrote his works in Ukrainian. He was the first chairman, or whatever it is called, of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences, which was organized by Skoropadskyi. Although he moved to Moscow at that time. To me, the heroes are those who glorify the Ukrainian nation. For me, these are heroes.

Woman, 72 years old, recorded in Kharkiv on February 10, 2014, Euromaidan and Orange Revolution participant 

In the history of the country, I would rank Yevhen Konovalets and Mykhailo Hrushevskyi as the greatest heroes. Yevhen Konovalets was a statesman. I think he was a very successful statesman. Hrushevskyi was like an academic field because I am a supporter of an intellectual fight. Roman Shukhevych was a hero as a real military commander. And I would also give the fourth place to some intellectual player. I don’t know which one to choose, some intellectual player, so to speak. Perhaps Taras Shevchenko, so let it be. The bicentennial is appropriate. Although he is not entirely my kind of person, he is not my approach. He constantly spoke about the problems that are present in Ukrainian society. I would rather encourage to fight. This is an approach, perhaps, of Dontsov, which may be too intense. The key is to struggle. Among the antiheroes I would name, of course, Joseph Stalin, I would… It’s hard to say. You have to look at it in hindsight. I would name Peter the Great. I would also name Andrii Boholyubskyi, who was the first to actually burn down Kyiv, and this line of such negativity began. And I would probably also name… I don’t know who the fourth one is. Perhaps the communist government as a whole is a bit too much. But let it be. And I would name Lenin. 

Man, 23 years old, recorded in Lviv on February 10, 2014, activist, one of the Euromaidan organizers 

I know a very cool thing. We were playing somewhere at a base in Poltava. And there was a People’s Deputy [member of parliament, t/n] traveling with us, a sort of dissident, who was even in jail somewhere. And he told us a very cool thing. It was, I think, the eighth or ninth year. And he was there, anyway, and “Our Ukraine” [a center-right political party of Ukraine formed in 2005] had once again given money for the festival. … He told us that Yushchenko was a holy man and that Ukraine gives birth to such people only once every 300 years. And he was just a God to him. We said, “Yushchenko is a traitor. He kissed Yanukovych. He withdrew the signature of this deputy under the memorandum.”… So he considered this person a hero. And then, a year or two passed, and I also met him in Kyiv. He is still a member of parliament, so we are talking. But he had just yammered on and on to the Verkhovna Rada [the parliament of Ukraine, t/n] because of the ratification of the Kharkiv agreements. An older man, he was beaten very hard right in the hall of the Verkhovna Rada. And he is completely broken, a completely broken person in general. And it’s just terrible to watch. And I didn’t, I just, I just felt sorry for the man. I didn’t ask questions about that very holy man and that very Yushchenko. I can tell you that, for me, he was never a hero. But as for antiheroes. The question is that there are heroes who, I’m sorry, I’ll be blunt, heroes who do not die beautifully, I don’t know, with their arms outstretched. They have a very good chance of becoming antiheroes. And the question is, I don’t know, does the country need these kinds of heroes now? Well, this is my answer.

Man, 39 years old, recorded in Kharkiv on February 11, 2014, one of the Euromaidan organizers 

Antiheroes are all those people who fought against their own nation. So, that’s it, all those who were Chekists, all those who were Bolsheviks, and so on. And heroes are those who fought for their own people, so. Again, if we take our territory, I would single out Makhno. I would single out Ivan Sirko, a great Kharkiv citizen who has not yet been immortalized in Kharkiv. I would single out Mykola Mikhnovskyi, the man who created the theory that was the first to proclaim the slogan of independent Ukraine, who was also a Kharkiv resident. Certainly, Shevelov and so on. 

Man, 48 years old, recorded in Kharkiv on February 11, 2014, one of the Euromaidan organizers (speaker)

Well, one of my friends and I recently came to the conclusion that Khmelnytskyi, in fact, was an antihero for Ukraine (laughs). Well, it’s such a long moment. Well, in recent years, it’s hard to say. Definitely, people say that Yushchenko is an antihero, yes. Because they pinned all these hopes on him, and he did not fulfill them. On the other hand, it seems to me that we should not believe in a good Tsar who will come and do everything. I mean, again, everyone who, in general, or individually, fights against this system can be considered a hero. Say, standing up for their rights in court, or, I don’t know, defending some piece of forest or park or something else. All these people are already heroes.

Man, 27 years old, recorded in Kharkiv on February 11, 2014, “Green Front” activist 

Ruslana, she does it well, for sure. Even though I was very skeptical about her political activities, and I don’t really like her, and I had the opportunity to cross paths with her a long time ago, I don’t really like her, but she’s good. Indeed, she is there. I saw it, night after night, not just standing there but working endlessly with everyone. The way she behaved during the assaults, the way she calmed people down… Throughout the whole history, Stus is one of the [heroes]. I probably won’t say much. Stus is an example for me. Speaking of antiheroes, Medvedchuk is an antihero (laughs). He’s an antihero too, but he’s not in power. I forgot. So you just have to keep talking and talking, and I’ll keep remembering… Stus, Lina Kostenko, you can name many people who have done a lot. Among the younger ones, we can also mention public figures, such as Viatrovych, who is relatively young, I mean. … In the history of Ukraine in general? I’m going to talk about modern history. Medvedchuk – I’ve already said it. I’m really interested in history. I like history very much, but we have a problem now, and it’s not the right time to look back so often. We have a very serious problem here, and we have enough antiheroes. Medvedchuk is probably a bigger antihero for me than Yanukovych because he has a lot of influence here. It’s not a fact that the decisions that are being made now are being made by Yanukovych. He is simply in such a position that even if he suddenly wanted to do something different somewhere else, would he be able to do it?  

Woman, 29 years old, recorded in Kyiv on February 11, 2014, Euromaidan activist 

I’m very fond of literature, and this is Taras Shevchenko [hero]. Everything he said is coming true now. Independent Ukraine is free from slavery, but he did not live long enough to witness it. He was just a unique person. There are very few of them, one in a million. The most negative ones are… I don’t know. Perhaps, these are the people who have power now, and they simply cannot hear millions of people. So many people marched in the streets, so many times the government was told to resign, but unfortunately, the government is staying. 

Man, 18 years old, recorded in Kyiv on February 12, 2014, Euromaidan activist 

Well, for example, I think that Les Kurbas is a hero, a prominent hero who has done so much for Ukrainian culture and development. He is truly a hero. A person who spread his values till the end, to the very end of his life. Stus was very engaged too. He tried to protect the history of culture until the very end and also did a lot for its development. If we’re talking about antiheroes, there are plenty of them too. And the whole history, in general, is crammed with antiheroes. But, you know, I can’t honestly say that I will name one person so that everyone else doesn’t feel so good.

Woman, 35 years old, recorded in Kyiv on February 12, 2014, Euromaidan and Orange Revolution activist

Well, there are historical figures who are definitely heroes. I think that starting with Volodymyr the Great, they are heroes. I believe all the people whose portraits we take out of our wallets and whose personalities are painted on money are our heroes: Khmelnytskyi, Mazepa, Lesia Ukrainka, and Shevchenko. And we did mention Taras [Shevchenko, t/n], not by chance. Our current protest was also held near the monument to Shevchenko. It is generally symbolic for Kharkiv. I think the heroes are those who participated in the liberation wars in the twenties. These are the people who generally went through Holodomor and those who fought and fought on the side of the Red Army and the UPA army. Heroes are also dissidents. It’s Chornovil, it’s Lukianenko, it’s a whole myriad of unique people in Ukraine who fought. These are the Ukrainians who broke the system or at least clawed back at it. The heroes are those who started in the eighties. There are many people like this. In general, many people remain unknown. We don’t know their names. For example, in Lviv, there was a man who raised the “Revolution on Granite.” He raised the revolution. Then we know Oles Donii, Kyrylenko. Unlike the others, these people just started the revolution. They starved, they overthrew the government, and they overthrew the Soviet system. Then they just came back to their daily activities. They were just like all the prophets who did it similarly in biblical history. It’s hard to say who the heroes are in the last 20 years, but the current situation creates heroes who stand daily on the barricades. We don’t know their names, but these are people who stand and fight. They leave their families, leave their children and stand here and die for Ukraine. To me, they are heroes. Well, who are the antiheroes? There are a lot of traitors. There have always been people in Ukraine, like the so-called “fifth column,” who did not understand what Ukraine is. Many of them still don’t understand, especially in Kharkiv. They do not understand that there is Ukraine. The ones who betrayed, who sold themself out. I think that many of our presidents, starting from the first president, I mean Kravchuk, and the second, and the third, and the fourth, were all antiheroes. I mean, they could have made Ukraine different, but they didn’t.

Man, 39 years old, recorded in Kharkiv on February 16, 2014, one of the Euromaidan organizers and Orange Revolution participant 

Well, the heroes of our country from the past are our prominent writers and poets, such as Taras Shevchenko and Ivan Franko. Well, and there are many others, of course. We all know them. The antiheroes are the dictators of our Ukrainian nation, such as Lenin and Stalin.

Man, 21 years old, recorded in Lviv on February 17, 2014 Euromaidan participant in Lviv and Kyiv

If you look at it globally, then of course, the antiheroes for all the people in Ukraine are our president, whom, I don’t know, half the country is ready to kill for the sake of the real life that we need in the country. As for the heroes, I don’t see any heroes. Really, there are no heroes among the opposition, even no people who should be called heroes. Because whoever the opposition is, no matter how much we want to see all the good in those people, they want power too, they want money, and they just use people for their own good.

Woman, 19 years old, recorded in Lviv on February 18, 2014,Euromaidan activist 

Heroes are those people who fought for our country, for our country, and for our independence. Those who fought to ensure that Ukraine, those pieces of a land torn apart throughout history, were joined back together. But there were people whom we should be grateful to and thanks to whom Ukraine became united and free. For example, in literature, I can name such people as Shevchenko, Franko, and Lesia Ukrainka. They cared about the Ukrainian people and did a lot for them. Thanks to them, we even learned much more about Ukraine. The antiheroes are those people who did everything possible to prevent the independence of Ukraine from happening. These are those who oppressed Ukraine. And in general, they were looking for any reason to harm it.

Woman, 18 years old, recorded in Lviv on February 19, 2014, Euromaidan participant